LHF: Hello, and welcome back to Today I Learned: Climate, the climate change podcast of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. I'm Laur Hesse Fisher, and—ah!—that is the last time that I am going to utter those words.

I am leaving MIT and am leaving as the host of the show. In today's episode, we are going to get a little bit of the behind-the-scenes look at how we make the show, what some of our principles are, you know, how the secret sauce gets made, what's staying with the show, and what new things might be introduced. And also, I have the distinct pleasure of introducing our new host, Madison Goldberg.

MG: Thank you so much, I’m thrilled to be here.

LHF: So we're gonna get a huge opportunity to get to know you and your background. You are no stranger to science communication. You have a degree in Earth and Planetary Sciences from our dear friends down the road, as well as in journalism, and you have worked on the Scientific American podcast and on Living on Earth, on that show, and also you've done deep reporting on environmental issues in Pennsylvania. So you have so much to bring to this conversation. Let's start off, I want to ask you, what sparked your fire for science communication?

MG: You know, I had what I think is not an uncommon path into science communication, where I started in science. You know, I studied—in undergrad, I studied Earth and Planetary Sciences, as you mentioned, and I adored it. I worked with amazing people. I did, you know, Earth science research, and it was awesome. But I realized the parts of it when I was just really fired up and in my element were not necessarily in the lab, per se, but when I was, you know, at a big Earth Science conference in the giant poster halls, where everyone has their posters out, and going around and learning from people, learning about their research.

Before one of those conferences, I had made my big poster, and it was, like, spread out on the table, and my grandparents were visiting. And I distinctly remember, like, the joy that came from explaining to them what I was doing and, like, them at least pretending to be interested. And, you know, from there, it was just—I was really lucky to have folks who encouraged me to keep exploring it, both in science and in writing and journalism.

LHF: I love that. And you chose audio as a way to express and kind of do your science communication. What do you love about the medium of audio?

MG: Yeah. You know, at the risk of sounding obvious, you hear people in their voices, and I think that's really special. You know, on TILclimate, you hear from scientists in their own voices. I think you can really hear when someone gets animated. And I think it makes it tangible, hopefully, for listeners, in a special way.

LHF: That is absolutely why we prioritized having this as a podcast, because we wanted people to feel a closer connection to the science. I mean, you read about it, you see reports, you see statistics and graphs. It feels very distant and kind of abstract. So this is a way to hear the stories and the interests and the words specifically from scientists and kind of, I don’t know, personify them a little bit more than you get to do in a more traditional way that science is communicated.

MG: Yeah, absolutely. I think that personality aspect is crucial, and I'd love to hear a bit about how you've gone about that—how you’ve thought about how to cultivate that personality of the show.

LHF: Oh, so thank you. So that really all starts with who we built the show for. So we built the show for people who were curious about climate change already. Maybe they were new to climate change because of a job, or maybe they were confused by lots of different things that they hear about on the news, and they just wanted someone to provide a kind of signal through the noise of what was going on—like, simple, clear explanations, kind of like with your grandparents.

One of the benefits, of course, is we’re from MIT, so we have an incredible cadre of researchers and people that we can pull from for the show. That brings a sense of credibility. But then, also, we don’t—we don’t expect our listeners to take what we say for granted. I feel like, as the host, I get to be curious on behalf of the audience, right? We have the scientists that are there. I get the honor to be able to ask them all my questions, and I have to figure out how to distill that down to the most basic key things that our audience needs to know.

I have been very lucky on the show to have Aaron Krol as our lead writer and now executive producer. He's incredibly talented and incredibly thoughtful and really a marvel at creating some of those really simplified stories.

Like, let me give you one example. So one of our first episodes was with Professor Kerry Emanuel, and we were working on a show on hurricanes, and what I learned is that the way that hurricanes form in an ocean is actually really complicated. And then, after the recording, we were wrestling with this, like, how do we deal with this? What do we—and then we realized, the thing that we need to communicate here, it's not all the mechanics of how a hurricane starts. But the fact is that a warmer air means a warmer ocean. A warmer ocean has more energy, that basically creates more energy inside of a hurricane. We don't need to get more complicated than that. So what we always try to do with all of our shows is take the topic and kind of distill it down to something that feels memorable and simple and crisp for people to remember.

MG: Yeah. Yeah, that actually reminds me—you know, you mentioned that I was fortunate to do a fellowship in Pennsylvania reporting on environmental issues. One of my very first assignments was something that this reminded me of. And, you know, we made these very short radio spots sometimes that, you know, just—they have to be snappy. They have to be within the window of time that you have. And so I was supposed to make an explainer about climate models.

LHF: Oh, boy.

MG: Yes, and under a minute. So, it was this amazing exercise in forcing yourself to think about, there's a million different directions that I could go here. Climate models are obviously an immensely complicated area, but there are certain things that, I think, that serve people who are hearing it as they're driving and other things that probably aren't that useful to them in that moment, that they can figure out if they want to go and learn more.

And on this idea of making things memorable: Like, I know that's something that you guys have thought a lot about, and you've thought about, you know, different metaphors you can use, or things like that. Like, how do you think about that?

LHF: Yes, so one of my favorite metaphors that was introduced on the show was our direct air capture episode. So this is the idea of, okay, there's all this carbon dioxide in the air, can't we just suck it out? So Professor Niall Mac Dowell was our guest speaker, and he introduced this metaphor of, like, imagine the molecules of oxygen and nitrogen and CO₂, and all the other stuff that's in the air, the gases that are in the air, are marbles, and everything that isn't CO₂ is blue, and CO₂ is red.

NM [Excerpt from S3E5]: If we imagine now the atmosphere, the air, it’s not a hundred marbles, it’s a million marbles. And of this million, only about 400 of them are red and everything else is blue, so you can spend a lot of energy, a lot of—you will have to do a lot of work to search through all the blue marbles to find the red marbles.

LHF: And so just that visual of, like, oh my gosh, okay, I can kind of get a sense of why this is—why direct air capture is so expensive, so energy-intensive, so hard. I think that visual really helps.

Dave Lishansky, our brilliant audio producer, he is a genius. I mean, he always has said that podcasting is a visual medium, and it is, because we're hearing, we're imagining what we're hearing in our minds.

MG: We're talking a lot about sort of these ideas of how to communicate the science and the nitty-gritty of that stuff. But obviously, you know, I know a big focus for you in creating this show is also a focus on the solutions. I think it's very easy to feel doomed and to feel scared and to feel overwhelmed by the prospect of climate change. And something that I've really appreciated about the tone that you've created on the show is I tend to leave the episodes feeling more motivated, you know, more—like, a sense of efficacy, a sense of possibility.

LHF: Man, I'm so thankful and grateful that you get that impression from listening to the show. It's definitely something that we prioritize. I don't feel doomed about climate change. And I've thought a lot about why that is, and I think a lot of it is because I do this work, and I am connected with so very many smart, committed, authentic, hardworking people who are working strategically on this issue. So, I don't feel alone. And of course I'm concerned, I'm very concerned. We need to take action. The fact is, we have a lot of agency. And so in every episode, we really try to focus on, okay, what can actually be done to move things forward?

MG: How do you go about that? What does that look like in the show—what has it looked like thus far?

LHF: Yes, the reason why I sighed is because it's something that we thought a lot about, and we've really wrestled with this topic, because we know this is not a ‘what I can do about climate change’ show. And at the same time, a lot of people are wondering, ‘What do I do about climate change?’ And we tackled this in an episode.

So the point that we try to emphasize in the show is that climate change is a systems problem, and one individual is inside of a system. So in that episode, we encourage people, instead of asking, ‘What can I do?’ to ask, ‘What can I influence?’ What communities are they a part of that they can shift something there? Are there faith groups that have buildings and infrastructure where they can shape things? Are they inside of a corporate infrastructure or legal infrastructure where they could shift systems? Like, that's the kind of work that really needs to happen in order to deal with the systemic issue.

MG: You know, there's a scientist and climate communicator who I really, really admire, Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson. And she talks about this concept of a Climate Action Venn Diagram. So, thinking about, you know, what am I good at? What are the things that need to be done? And what brings me joy? She talks about finding the intersection of those things, and I think that gets to this idea of, what are things that I can do based on the networks, the communities that I'm a part of? And as she mentions, it's important that it brings you joy, because that's something that you can keep doing, you know, and hopefully will derive satisfaction and fulfillment and purpose from. And so when I heard that episode that you mentioned, ‘TIL what I can do,’ which focused on these—this sort of framework, I really appreciated that. And I think, going forward in the show, I hope that's something that we can maintain.

LHF: Well, speaking of which—so, I mean, what we talked about today are, you know, like, the principles and the elements of the show that has made it the show that it is today. And when you came on board, you know, I'm really excited for you to keep championing that. And I've heard rumblings that there are gonna be some new elements to the show to take it to the next level. Can you give us any sneak peeks about this?

MG: Yeah, well, I think, something that I have experience with and that is one of my favorite parts of doing this kind of work is going out into the field and talking to people—you know, field audio reporting. Speaking of things that bring one joy, this brings me a good deal of joy, and it's something that I'm really excited to hopefully incorporate a bit more of in the show, in addition to, sort of, the sit-down interviews that listeners are used to. You know, climate solutions are being deployed now. And I think the chance to hear from people who are both working on those solutions and working on the research, you know, that underpins them, hopefully, can make things tangible for listeners. And so that's one thing, is this sort of on-the-ground look.

And actually, you know, I had a chance recently to go out with some researchers from MIT who were doing some field work down on Cape Cod, in a marsh there. It was such a joy, I'm so grateful I got to tag along with them and hear from them and look, you know, up close and personal at this kind of work. And I’m really excited to weave that into the show going forward.

And then, I think this sense of momentum, this sense of possibility that you've talked about, that's something that I, that I really will strive to maintain. Something that you hear sometimes, and that has been very motivating to me—I know it made an appearance, this concept, in an episode—is that every fraction of a degree of warming that we can prevent matters. You know, we have these sorts of numerical thresholds that, you know, global agreements are aiming to avoid. But passing one doesn't mean, you know, throw in the towel and be done. And so that sense both of the urgency of doing something and the fact that we can—and people can leverage their networks, people can leverage their skills—that emphasis is one that I hope and that I will strive to continue on.

So, speaking of the future of the world and also of your life—can you tell us a little bit about what's next for you? What are you working on, and what can people look forward to from you?

LHF: Oh, thanks for asking that. So for the last several years, I have just been fascinated by what's actually holding us back, right, in actually accelerating action on climate change. And it just became clear to me over and over again that the political polarization of the issue of climate change is, I'd say, one of the top, if not the top, things in the United States.

One of the reasons I left MIT is to really pursue this completely and more fully. How can we decarbonize no matter what president is in office or who has power in Congress? That's where my heart is at right now, and I'm really excited to pursue it. And then, speaking of, you know, my heart—so I'll, I'm going to get corny here. So I—it's been such a, just a privilege and an honor that MIT entrusted me and the team with representing MIT research and philosophy through the show for a public audience. So that's been a true joy to be able to explore how to do.

And I just want to say to all of our listeners, thank you so much for being here for the last seven seasons. It's been such a privilege to be able to have you in my head as we've been writing these episodes and producing them, and of course, hearing from you over phone calls and emails and LinkedIn posts and asking your questions, I’m really looking forward to you continuing with us in the show.

MG: All right, and to our listeners, thank you so much for being here. We're really, really excited that you're here, and please stay tuned for the next season. I'm really excited.

TILclimate is the climate change podcast of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Special thanks to Brett Paci of MIT OpenCourseWare and to the folks at Giro Studio for their help producing this episode—as well as an extended video version, which we will add to our show notes at tilclimate.org.

Aaron Krol is our writer and executive producer. David Lishansky is our sound editor and producer. Today’s episode was edited by Danielle Simpson. The music is by Blue Dot Sessions. Our founding host is and always will be Laur Hesse Fisher.

And I’m your new host and associate producer, Madison Goldberg—and this season, I will be following red squirrels up a mountain, I’m gonna be digging up mud in a wetland, and, of course, I’m gonna be learning along with you about our changing climate. So stay tuned.