When Vishnu Swaminathan was asked how free enterprise has helped India, he continued from what de Soto had said about property, pointing out that 97% of Indians pay no income tax. Because they are therefore outside the system they cannot obtain a mortgage and so cannot purchase property in the usual way. He and his associates realized that they need to connect people with those who build houses. Then they discovered the importance of the role of women. It is women who ensure the monthly payment is made and it is women who cement the community. They also discovered that even when they are poor people have aspiration. Women made clear that even if they did not have a fridge, they wanted the space for one in their new house.

Shiv Khemka made the point that even if the world’s economic pie is continuously growing, the division of it is still inequitable. He described the situation of unequal sharing of wealth as like being on a burning platform. Gurcharan Das countered this when he said that his driver does not think this way.

“He doesn’t care if Ambani is rich; he’s only concerned about putting his daughter through school. In India we are more concerned with lifting people out of poverty than with equality. It’s not about envy.”

Shiv Khemka retorted: “I want to talk about equality of opportunity, the possibility of generating wealth from the bottom up. I think the system is not working. It’s rigged. The underlying quality of morality is missing. Martin Luther King Jr said ‘Every person must decide at some point, whether they will walk in light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness.’ It’s a powerful idea.”

Sadanand Dhume invited Jay Panda to tell what he thought his constituents would have to say. He replied that they too were generally more concerned with education for their children, improved hospital facilities and so forth. But, he conceded, there comes a point when the rigging of the system makes people angry. He suggested that last year’s general election result in India was not just pro-Modi but anti-corruption and inflation.

When His Holiness was asked to comment, he answered:

“I don’t know. These problems are quite complicated. Everything is interrelated. One thing we haven’t mentioned is how the success of the USA is related to war in terms of the manufacture and sale of weapons. There’s no recycling there.

"It seems to me that capitalism is principally motivated by profit, whereas socialism is at least concerned about society. What I found attractive about what Marx had to say was that concerned about the way workers were exploited he advocated a more equal distribution of wealth. Both these systems depend on the individuals who participate in them.

“Compassion is the basis of moral principles. The goodness of an action is not just about the act, but on whether it arises out of concern for others and their rights. That’s the basis of moral thinking. If we can instil the idea of concern for others in our young people, if we can train people this way, we can create a better world in which there is greater trust and compassion. I don’t have any other answer to these complicated problems. People need to have a change of heart.”

Dhume asked whether things have got better in the nearly 57 years His Holiness has been in India.

“Yes,” he replied. “There is this ancient idea of ahimsa, non-violence or not doing harm. It means that if you have the opportunity to exploit someone, but you restrain yourself, that’s ahimsa and it arises from karuna which is compassion or respect for others. If you have a bad motivation even good actions will do no good. Democracy is good but it won’t work as it should if the people involved are selfish. When there is no freedom, no freedom of speech it limits our creativity. That’s why I tell the Chinese I meet that the 1.3 billion Chinese people should be informed about reality. If they were they would have the ability to judge right from wrong. Therefore censorship is wrong. In this connection India is much freer. If we want to be realistic, we have to act according to the current reality.

“With regard to the question of whether to favour capitalism or socialism. After the collapse of the USSR with its effects on the countries of Eastern Europe, President Havel invited me to Czechoslovakia. I suggested at that juncture that it would be good to take what was good from both.”

Following a short break for tea, the second session convened with Robert Doar moderating a discussion between Gurcharan Das, Arthur Brooks, Tully Friedman, chairman and CEO of Friedman Fleischer & Lowe LLC and His Holiness. The question was: ‘Are markets ethical?’

Gurcharan Das began by saying that markets are neither moral nor immoral, they give signals about how to behave. He gave an example of a woman selling fruit near his house and his complaining that her mangoes were expensive. “But they’re very good,” she retorted, so he bought some. They turned out to be bad. He told his friends and neighbours and they began to take their business to her competitor instead. He described this as an exercise of choice and ability to punish for bad behaviour. He said that when someone is dishonest like this, they betray your trust, but the market mechanism reinforces acceptable behaviour.

He cited two more examples. A negative one, from his time at Proctor & Gamble, was when the purchasing manager beat down a supplier’s price to the point that he supplied an inferior component. A more positive one was a small company that was regularly able to hire the best people. It was able to do so because of its reputation for treating people well.

“Markets are based on trust,” Das said. “When I get into a taxi, the driver doesn’t check that I have enough money to pay the fare, he trusts me. Markets give signals and the consequent self-regulation is part of the economy.”

Arthur Brooks contended there are fundamental values to good capitalism: service, non-attachment and optimism. He defined service in terms of compassion, suggesting that free enterprise makes a difference not through charity, but by creating opportunity. He clarified non-attachment in terms of understanding the danger and power of materialism. He quoted a conversation he had had with a Tibetan monk who had pointed out that Mao Zedong started out with a good idea, but became corrupted by power. Brooks asserted that we are stewards of resources to help others, that private property is a mechanism to protect things to share with others. He counselled his colleagues to remember gratitude. The third value, optimism, he said, is to retain a belief in people. It’s the difference between seeing poorer people as assets not as a problem; seeing that they too have potential to build on.

Libby Liu, president of Radio Free Asia, drew comparisons between American interest in moral capitalism and the situation in China. She acknowledged China’s huge influence, but expressed misgivings about the lack of a moral core, a spiritual life, or sense of community. There is, she said, only an elite managing capital from the top. She asserted that if someone wants to do good in China, they are obstructed by corruption. Ending on an upbeat note, she hoped that a positive human spirit will ultimately prevail.

Tully Friedman added a note of caution to the discussion. While utopian economic models have largely faded away in the USA, capitalism sometimes fails, as it has done in relation to ‘crony capitalism’. However, he asserted that the science is settled about the success of liberal capitalism, which can have maximum positive impact with rewards for good behaviour.

Gurcharan Das commented that self-interest is legitimate; it’s not only about greed. Hernando de Soto remarked that the Arab Spring had caught everyone’s attention because it was genuinely a movement from the bottom up. The people had finally had enough of everything of value being expropriated by the government. Danielle Pletka declared that America is the most powerful country in the world with the most successful economy. She said the challenge comes when the American government is reluctant to exercise its moral authority.

When Robert Doar asked His Holiness for his thoughts about capitalism in India, he replied:

“I’ve always said that India has these fundamental ancient values of ahimsa, non-violence and a tradition of religious harmony. These values have been preserved. Then there is ancient Indian psychology, a highly developed body of knowledge. These are part of India’s wealth. So as contemporary Indians acquire a modern education and pursue technological development, they would do well not to overlook these tried and tested ideas.

“I’d like to ask a question. Sweden seems to be a truly socialist country where there is little gap between rich and poor. Austria similarly is a country where there are few millionaires, but again the gap between rich and poor is not great. Why do you think this is?”

Arthur Brooks replied that these observations were even truer about Denmark, but observed that Denmark is a country with a small population amongst whom it is relatively easy to achieve a consensus. He questioned whether a Danish model could be applied to India. Hernando de Soto echoed this and pointed out that one of the ways that the US manages this is by having one political party focussed on protecting people from big business and another focussed on protecting them from big government.

“The factor I emphasise here,” His Holiness responded, “is not religious faith but basic human goodness. We survive because of compassion and basic human affection. When children grow up surrounded by affection, they develop in a healthy way. The reason that religious traditions that have come about in different times, places and conditions all emphasise the need for love is that this is what human survival depends on. Genuine affection is what ultimately affects all our relations in a positive way. Scientists tell us that stress and fear are bad for our health, while a calm mind favours it.

“My sense of compassion has little effect on the pain in my knees, but it certainly contributes to my general well-being. Warm-heartedness is the key to the survival of humanity. If the economy were driven by kindness, things would be different. We need to set to work. And in this light the American economy is important to the world.”

In his summing up of the symposium, Arthur Brooks asked:

“Why not do four things? Be grateful for abundance; reject greed; dedicate our lives to ensuring opportunity and, please, spread the word about what we’ve said and done here. I’d like to thank His Holiness - it’s been an honour to be with you.”